Implementing Zen (Discussion and feedback)

[NexDog]

I just posted on our blog about zen.spamhaus.org which is a really cool spam blacklist that can reduce spam by 90%.

Please read the post here

I want to implement it on our servers but there would be some initial issues for people with blacklisted ISPs and IPs. Easily resolved but I'd like everyone to be aware of potential issues before we did this. So vote in the poll and please leave a comment here or on the blog.

I'll also send out a global email on this to get as much exposure as possible so when the tickets flow in I can say, "Hey, I posted on the blog, on the forum and emailed everyone".

[RobbieLePommie]

Firstly - thanks for taking the time to explain this. You should sent a "Nexus Newsflash" to alert others to the discussion?

My tuppence: I'm savvy enough to handle the spam that comes in, filter and sort it out, so I would prefer it left as is.

My thuppence: I have plenty of users who aren't savvy enough, and get overwhelmed by spam. They would love the service.

Unfortuntaely, I think your comment "right away we got complaints from users who couldn’t send mail because their ISP was listed in pbl.spamhaus.org" answers the question - spam is a pain, but e-mail is more critical and incorrectly considered "delivered when sent" by many; anything that is known to stop that delivery is not permissible. Especially where it appears to affect a high number of users.

[NexDog]

I'm doing a new newsletter which will go out on October 1st. Will include this in it.

Very good points, Rob.

[MikeMann]

Personally, I must be one of the lucky ones. Only have had one email address hit by a ton of spam (mostly self caused I'd suspect). Sure I get the occasional junk email, but for some reason have been very fortunate. Thinking that encoding my emails might have something to do with it (when placed on my sites). You know that whole &#numbernumber; thing. That keeps them showing on the page but apparently makes it not so easy on email harvesters (read that somewhere).

Even though I've been fortunate (knock on wood), I'm all for anything which will help the masses with reduction in spam.

[engel]

Yeah, thanks for involving us in this decision Laurence

At first glance, I was scared that I would miss emails from clients, or my clients would miss emails from their clients. It makes you look like a total douchebag when someone sends you an email and you just... never... reply. "I didn't receive it" doesn't really cut it as an excuse; as Rob said, people assume their emails are delivered when sent. I impulsively voted no before I actually read the post :S

I'm swinging on this issue now though, after reading reading the post and learning that the sender gets a bounced email message with a link she can click to take her IP off the blacklist.

I think the critical issue here is the clarity of the 'bounced email' message. A lot of times a bounced email message will say something completely confusing. The sender thinks something is broken and immediately seeks tech support. For example:

<friend@example.net>: lost connection with inbound.example.net.netsolmail.net[205.178.149.7] while receiving the initial server greeting

If the bounced email message said something really easy to understand, then even beginner users would know what is going on. For example:

Your mail to friend@hostnexuscustomer.com could not be delivered because of spam protection. Please click [here], fill out the form, then resend the email.

So my point is, if there is an easy and reliable way for non-techies to get their servers off the blacklist, then you have my support, and please ignore my vote against. Even if the sender can't figure out how to get off the blacklist, a clearly worded bounce message lets the user know that their mail was not delivered, and why.

Cheers,
Joe

[RobbieLePommie]

If the bounced email message said something really easy to understand, then even beginner users would know what is going on.

I've gone through the same arguement in my head - a nicely worded bounce would be perfect.

BUT... I've helped plenty of even "non-beginner" users who don't understand bounce messages and spam. Right down to the bounces that say "e-mail does not exist" - there couldn't be something simpler, yet I'm asked "whose fault if this?"

And the "remove you IP from the list" still requires some hurdles to be jumped through (to prove your not a spam engine trying to delist yourself) so... I'm still in the "No" camp.

[lharvey]

OK My 1.117 cents. (adjusted for inflation)

By far, my most common call from customers is due to spam, coming in to them, or because e-mails they have sent are being blocked.

Most of my customers are non-profits so they deal with government, state, local and federal. I have to admit that our state government has the funkiest spam and relaying policies in place that are screwed down so tight that even some of their own employees get mail blocked from sending to their co-workers. It must drive the State IT help desk crazy.

Engel is 100% right but... Even if the bounce message where written in plain English, with pictures and graphs or even a singing telegram, the customers don't read it.

I have been running ChoiceMail from DigitalPortal Software for about three years and I love it. When someone sends me an e-mail, CM bounces back with a confirmation e-mail with the exact response that I have written

If you are sending me an e-mail and you are not on my accepted sender list, you will have to go to this site> %[Allow My E-mail]% and fill out a short form.

Your mail will then be automatically released and sent through. There is no need to send the mail again.

Thanks for your understanding.

Once they have done this their mail will be released and they will not have to register again. I can, if I am expecting mail from them, pre-approve them and they will not get challenged at all.

As simple as this is to do, people still call. "I sent you an e-mail but it got bounced back"

The moral of the story, I guess, is that no matter how simple you make it, and how simple the bounce message, people don't read the bounces and just automatically assume that the mail is broken and you should fix it.

Most of the time you ask them to read the "reject" e-mail and they have already deleted it.

In summary, SpamHaus - Yes, let the chips fall where they may.

Lee

PS Mike, what flavor of Ubuntu you running?

[jjarrett]

Using spam assassin and thunderbird's built-in spam filter, I'm down to a few dozen a day getting through...which is pretty bad but considering thousands a week make it to my computer, I don't complain...too much.

My main problem is with getting blocked - especially by Sprint. I pay for a few private IP addresses, but we get caught up in the block on Beta getting blocked. Too many people use their DSL for that to be acceptable - lots of them my family.

I'f I'm gone all week and can cut out the hours it takes to download 3000 emails, wait for thunderbird to do what it can, then dig the rest out myself, that would be awesome.

Just wish we could do something about us getting blocked. Getting delisted by them is a pain in the arse.

I'll vote yes if it will save hours a week handling spam - especially if it will bounce a message back that might get me off a few lists.

(Laurence - thanks for the post, the research, and the NewsFlash letting us know!)

[bevdan]

anything to reduce spam.
will you will check that all hostnexus IP's are not listed before setting up.

also if you have any other tips for reducing spam that would be great.

[NexDog]

jjarrett - issue with servers getting flagged is unavoidable. Look at all the reasons:

1) People use weak passwords and mailboxes get hacked by spammers.
2) People with infected computers send spam via their Outlook which goes via our server.
3) People use insecure scripts that can get hacked by spammers.
4) People can genuine spam.
5) People can get genuine email (like newsletters) flagged incorrectly as spam.

It's pretty tough.